Notes on phase-lock-loop circuitry of a Meyer resonant water fuel cell

Here’s the schematics.  They are improving daily.  Note: all POV-Ray images on this site are just for laughs and are inherently inaccurate.

Files: THESE ARE NOT DONE!  DRAFT!  THIS DOES NOT WORK!

oscillation_overthruster.zip




“ZeroFossilFuel” has a fabulous idea in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKjUzsNj8NM (also see http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU ).  I have not tried this yet, but the more I look at it, the more I like it.

Picture Right: Lawton style gated pulse circuit, 4″ toroid, 3/8″ ferrite rod, E-core ferrite, new meter


Referring to WO 92/07861 ( http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/wo92.htm ) , the ‘A27’ chip in Figure 7 is equivalent to a 4046 PLL chip. The write up on Figure 8 is particularly interesting. Note that ‘A31’ chip looks like a 555, there are many of these throughout the drawings. “The scanning circuit o Figure 8 scans frequency from high to low to high repeating until a signal lock is determined.” : it runs a siren! I had thought about this as a way to initially discover the resonant frequency on start up. The next statement is incredibly enlightening: “The ferromagnetic core of the voltage intensifier circuit transformer suppresses electron surge in an out-of-resonance condition of the fuel cell.” The pulse monitor tap on the VIC circuit toroid in Figure 1 gets cleaned up like in Figure 9 and feeds the PLL control.

Figure 1 Figure 7 Figure 8 Figure 9

I was having trouble figuring out how to pickup and feed back the ‘resonance’, this is helping a lot.  The original Puharich design also addresses this.

09-AUG-2008 The preliminary circuit design is nearing completion.  I need to get breadboarding!

12-AUG-2008 I’m getting some help on the forums at WaterFuelCell.org .  Files and schematic picture updated.

17-AUG-2008 I had to split the schematic into two parts, the frequency counter is now on it’s own board.  The free version of Eagle wouldn’t handle one big board, not that I could handle it either.

25-AUG-2008 Files updated.  There are new driver transistors on the MOSFET, and the board layout is pretty close.  Currently breadboarding the Frequency Counter.  This is still DRAFT.

1-SEP-2008 Files updated.  The Frequency Counter is complete, PC boards are ordered and should be here in a week.  Now breadboarding the PLL circuit.  The Resonance Scanner is working, but sensitive.  VCO-IN is responsive to 1 volt – 4.9 volts, but can go to VCC.  The top quarter volt is VERY reactive.

15-SEP-2008 With the frequency counters built, and me ramping up my metalworking capability, I’m concentrating on the PLL now.  The best values for the PLL chip itself seem to be 0.22uF and 10K, with a 1uF lock detect cap.  I might make a ‘scan speed’ select on the resonance scanner, it’s a lot easier to adjust the scale and shift of the output when it goes fast, but I’m worried that the equipment won’t be able to handle too quick a scan speed.  I’ve got the dwell side of the 556 making a standard astable square wave, and feeding it into the PLL SIG-IN line.  When power is applied, it scans once, finds it, and locks.  It’s working well, I can ‘adjust’ the frequency to simulate skewing and it keeps track.  I’ve also worked out the driver circuit after a few different tries.  I’ve settled on a push-pull totem pole design which I’ve tested up to 100KHz with the “ST8NKy” MOSFET, this is working very well.  Schematic updated. I’d like to add a lot of goofy cool blinky lights, but I’m running out of real estate.  I’m considering a ‘hybrid’ design which uses surface mount components for lots of little indicator LEDs, they aren’t required for circuit operation but look nice.

16-SEP-2008 I’ve decided to split the safety circuits off to a daughter board, like the frequency counter.   As sad as I am to admit it, some people’s kids just aren’t going to use the safety circuits, and removing them from the main board will give me lots more room for blinky LEDs.

18-SEP-2008 Schematic updated.  PLL capacitor 0.22uF is good for 20Hz – 35KHz locking.  0.1uF is working for ~200Hz to 120KHz, but I need to do more testing on this range.  Sometimes it won’t re-lock after losing it at high frequency, but will initialize and lock if power is cycled.

21-SEP-2008 Lots and lots of blinky LEDs!  I’ve added 5 different color LEDs to the board now: red = fault, blue = pulse, green = lock, yellow = dwell, and white = gate.  I’m also adding in an LM3914N chip to drive a bar array of LEDs to the scanner voltage.  Thatt should be interesting.  It will do a sawtooth back-and-forth of the LEDs, this will allow limited adjustments to be made without an oscilloscope.  Lots of lights!  I’ve ordered 10K millicandela (so like, 10 candle) LEDs from SparkFun.com , so a big Hello to them and the China Young Sun LED Technology Co., Ltd.

24-SEP-2008 On the breadboard… I have the resonance scanner circuit working, the dwell disable signal is working, the PLL is interfaced to the scanner and dwell with logic gates, the MOSFET driver works, the pulse pickup circuit kinda works. I’ve got a store-bought dual coil choke on the pulse circuit and the MOSFET driving a resistor + LED + capacitor + the other side of the choke.
Given this primitive testing setup, I’m feeding the MOSFET output back into the pulse pickup circuit.

The ‘scanner’ display looks pretty cool, and will allow fine tuning of the scanner without a scope. That could be critical to operation in some iffy combinations.

Power on: it starts up and locks. Sometimes it scans a couple of times, other times the lock is instantaneous. Changing the value of the feedback capacitor makes it unstable (smaller caps are more stable too)… for a while… then it seems to mellow out. Freq rises slowly while doing this, which I think is some type of slow magnetization of the choke core, not significant.

I have a magnet I took out of a hard drive, pretty powerful and polarized right across the flat center on one side. I hold this magnet near the D-core of the choke and the frequency goes up . I tend to pull the choke coil out of the breadboard about this time, but if I hold it down, I can hold the magnet very close to the top… and it goes fast . When the magnet gets too close or I click it onto the coil core, it loses lock and won’t regain until I hold the choke and pull the magnet off. I’m guessing the magnet blocks the transfer of the pulse in the coil, so the lock is lost and the scanner switches into circuit. When I pull the magnet away, it scans a couple of times and locks. I’ll bet I’m demagnetizing my magnet too.

Bottom line… I can modify the environment, this changes the frequency of the pulse, and the PLL keeps lock. It’s doing what it’s supposed to do. The frequency counter is a big help with this :-) As
far as I’m concerned, I’ve got a circuit that mostly works. I need to work out the final design of the pulse pickup amp, and it’s ready for the proto shop.

I don’t have all the LEDs hooked up (just gate and lock for now), but I’ve tested the transistor driver
for them and they’ll work. I’ll put the whole thing in a blue translucent NEMA box and it will glow .

I’ve discovered McMaster-Carr. I have good stuff on the way, delrin, nylon, stainless steel, pressure switches. I need to get outside and get to working on the test tube, I just can’t seem to get motivated to get off the breadboard now that I’m having some luck with it. I got a really nice 12VDC brass water valve from Omega.com . I’m about to send the safety circuit design off for prototyping.

24-SEP-2008 (Later) Schematic and POV-Ray updated.  I cut some tubes with the new saw, it’s… scary.


27-SEP-2008 Made test cell. Tired.

28-SEP-2008 Delrin sucks, no way to glue it, but it will be useful one day with mechanical sealing.  Remade holder out of some of the 2″ clear PVC.  It looks great!  Schematics, files, pics updated.  I added a nice trick with one of the spare 4066 gates, now the scanner display gets brighter when the PLL is not locked, and dimmed when it locks.  I ordered more from Digikey, some very nice switches and knobbies for the front panel, a bunch of forgotten resistor values, and the relays for the safety board.  When I can test the optoisolator circuits with the relay, I can send the safety board design off for prototyping.

03-OCT-2008 Files and images updated.  It’s very close.

06-OCT-2008 Okay, so the circuit is close, but everything else is still far away.  It’s not delivering the voltage through the power transformer, and I’m confused.  I’m trying distilled water in the test cell and getting almost nothing.  Yes, I actually see tiny bubbles, but with the amount of juice I’m giving it, I should be melting wires.  Very very low current, and I can’t raise it even with the dwell gate defeated.  I blew an oscilloscope probe, I think I overvolted it, but I’m not sure how.  This is confusing.  I need a proper VIC transformer, that’s for sure.  I have a small heat sink on the output MOSFET, and it doesn’t even get warm.  Maybe I already cooked it, but I don’t think so.  I have to look at this another way and go back and reread the old tomes.

I tried using the Triad power transformer as the step-up, it just doesn’t seem to be drawing much from the MOSFET.  I probably need to (minimally) heat sink the MOSFET properly, but the current draw is very small, I can’t get it to draw more than 200mA, and the regular breadboarded PLL circuit draws 100mA or so of that.  The other side of the transformer shows like 20mV (MILLI volts), maybe that transformer is just a lot screwier than I thought.

I’m using a 7.5 inch ferrite rod bifilar (two wires) choke with another few turns (third winding) as the pulse pickup, that much seems to work, but the polarity of the pulse pickup seems to be the big factor on that part of the circuit.   This choke measured like 1.75mH a side when I measured it before with the cheap meter (now with blown fuses and mostly burned out).  With the pickup coil loosely wrapped over the ferrite one way, it works great, the other way, the response is very awkward in that a signal only appears when the dwell is off.  That’s strange, I have to play with that some more, at least it seems to be working.  With the diodes across the +/- inputs to the pulse op-amp, anything bigger than about 1.5 – 1.75 volts (forward bias of the MUR800E diodes) should be clipped.  Output from that op-amp is between VCC and GND.  I can see that output pulse on the scope, it works with the dwell and a little bit more after the dwell cuts.  I’ve noticed that it’s rather stable oscillation (unless the pickup coil is reversed), for all I know, it’s working perfectly and picking up too much garbage electrical interference from computers, oscilloscopes, video monitors… the other electronics in the room.  I’ve already noticed that with no pulse coil (open leads), it readily locks onto a 60Hz line signal out of the air.

At any rate, I’m becoming convinced that the circuit is doing what it’s supposed to do, and not much will need to change even if I get the right inductor(s).  If I determine that there won’t be anything I could add to the circuit to make up for any deficiency, I may send the PLL PCB off to get made anyway.  I’ll probably add in the manual override again, but that’s about all I can think to do.

I’ll take some pictures soon, maybe that will help.

07-OCT-2008

Pictures of Oscillation Overthruster output measured with a Tektronix 475 oscilloscope.

1189.  Top trace is dwell, about 25% at 878Hz (active low) taken at TP3 in the schematic (2V,0.5ms). Bottom trace is MOSFET gate (2V,0.5ms). MOSFET is driven by 9 volt supply, dwell is from one side of a 556 dual timer running on 5 volts.

1188. Top trace is dwell, same as above.  Bottom trace is the pulse output and PLL pin 14 SIGIN (2V,0.5ms).  Notice that pulses are detected after the dwell has shut off.

1190.  Close up of one dwell cycle with PLL VCO output.  Top trace is dwell (2V,50μs).  Bottom trace is PLL VCO OUT at TP6 (2V,50μs).  Here you can see the VCO is following the pulses.  Frequency counter at the VCO OUT says about 30K, it varies from 31K cold to 29K warm.  About 33 pulses in this picture per 878Hz dwell cycle is 28974, that’s about right.

1191.  Measurement at the test cell using 1.75mH dual choke, blocking diode, but no VIC transformer (1V,50uS, GND at center)  Input DC Amperage is 90 – 120 mA, sorry my cheap meter won’t do better than that right now.  The circuit normally uses that much juice, I don’t know why it’s not pulling more power.

Obviously, there’s no bubbles.  No hydrogen here, move along.

Note: I just saw something strange.  I noticed that after I turned the power off, the test cell had some voltage still on it.  I thought the scope was just decalibrated, but on GND it was at center.  Flipped back to DC, it was still showing 1.75 volts DC offset, same as in the picture above (the line at center of the waveform).  Huh?  I disconnected one of the cell wires, and the voltage is still there.  As much as I can figure, the cell is pulling some DC from the scope, and when it gets to the forward bias of the blocking diode, it stops.  So I short the cell, and it bounces back to about 0.6 volts.  I turned the circuit on, and voltage rose slowly to around 1.8 volts DC offset.  I turned the power off again, and it stays around 1.7V.  It looks like it’s sinking, very very slowly.  It’s a little weird.  It’s actually acting like… a capacitor?  Naw, that couldn’t happen.  Okay, I disconnected the scope, shorted the cell, reconnected the scope (0 volts), and then unshorted the cell.  The voltage started rising.  It’s acting like a capacitor and charging from the oscilloscope probe leakage.  Very cool, that’s a nice clue.  If I’m right.  It’s been a long day, I might be hallucinating.

This might explain a few things, there’s not even enough impurities for the water to conduct at all, so I can’t pump any current through it.  Maybe tomorrow I’ll try tap water.  Here’s a picture of my desk, don’t make me regret this:
Left to right: roll of solder, oil can of ‘Tap Magic’ cutting fluid, one-tube-set test water fuel cell (4 inch tubes), connection box with rod inductor choke, Tektronix 475 oscilloscope, yellow cased ampmeter behind banana connectors and wires, breadboard with 7046 PLL circuit, roll of Scotch 92 kapton tape, frequency counter (30579 Hz), stereo boom microscope

16-OCT-2008 I’ve done some rewiring.  The MOSFET and regulator diode are heat sinked, the test cell is hooked up.  It’s taking amperage, not a huge amount amount, but I’m still using distilled water.  It locks too easily, I’m thinking I might add the divider chip.  For some reason, the scanner circuit is invading the locked signal and knocking it out of lock.  I’m under the impression that once locked, it should really stay that way.  It falls out of lock regularly with the scanner, usually at the top when the frequency is highest.  I need it to stop scanning when locked, maybe I can tie the lock signal into the reset on that side of the 556.

26-OCT-2008 Okay, that’s doing something.  Now the scanner stops when the PLL locks, and this has a big effect.  The Triad still isn’t putting out the voltage that it should, but I’m getting a few tiny bubbles, what I might call an hour-old Alka-Seltzer.  I hooked up the cell directly (no VIC transformer) but with chokes, and I saw some hot spot frequencies.  There was one around 44KHz, but that spot was not very stable and usually jumped to 22Khz or 11KHz fairly quickly.  Sometimes the scanning would rest at 22KHz, but more often between 10 and 11 KHz.  This is interesting in that these are (reasonable) harmonics of each other and so this would tend to indicate something good.  Sometimes the circuit would jump to these points on it’s own, but more often I would cycle the power and these occured on first scan.

I’m trying the full circuit now, with reversed chokes.  If I run it with the dwell disabled, it soaks 1.82 DC Amps total circuit.  The control circuitry uses about 100 DC milliAmps.  The secondary of the Triad power transformer I’m trying as a VIC transformer is 0.92 Henries inductance according to my half burned out VC9808+ “Sinometer”.  Both sides of the choke measure 1.8 milliHenries.  The dwell at 150Hz and “ON” about %40 draws about 0.9 DC Amps (1.20 AC Amps).

When running this way there are some spikes in the +5VDC power supply, they occur on the MOSFET on times, as would be expected.  There are thick pulses during the gating times 50 millivolts high, and thin spikes at 0.1 volt.  This is ugly, it probably deprecates performance of the PLL.  I may experiment with powering the control circuitry completely separately.  This would involve cutting a fat trace on the safety board, but nothing a dremel won’t handle.

I’m also using the divider (CD4040) chip.  The chip divides the PLL Comparator input from the VCO output by 2^(the number of the pin), so Q1 = 1/2, Q2 = 1/4, Q3 = 1/8, et cetera.  This is providing a manner to adjust something… but I’m not sure what.  The frequencies change, things move around, but not really sure if it’s helping.  It will probably be a nice option to have a switch on the front of the box for it even if it’s a LOT of wires, so I’m thinking it might be permanent.  Note that Meyer’s circuit used 4017 decade counters, and so he could divide by 10, 100, or 1000.  Not sure if I want to try that.

I just tried using the JW Miller / Bourns choke instead of the 1/2 rod choke.  It seems to be working well, the circuit does everything the same but the frequency is much lower.


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This Oscillation Overthruster design is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License .

15 Responses to “WFC PLL – the Oscillation Overthruster”
  1. Bui Xuan Ngoc says:

    Good work. I read your blog everyday. If you agree I’ll replicate your circuit.
    Cheers

    Ngoc

  2. I don’t have any problem with this as long as you respect the Creative Commons BY-NC-SA license at http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/ . This circuit is not finished yet, but it’s getting close. I appreciate you asking. I’m glad you’re interested, and thank you for your comment! Comment here or email me at mr.crankypants@pyroflatulence.tv if you have questions or I can help.

    I can have extra boards made from the prototype shop if you are interested, but no promises as to when that will be, I have to keep my day job for now :-) I mentioned that this isn’t finished yet, right?

  3. Bui Xuan Ngoc says:

    What frequency do you expect the circuit works at? Did you see circuit of Chris on Yahoo group meyer_wfc_replication? He said he is running car on water now. Chris was talking 30-100mhz.
    Anyway I’m not an electronics engineer so I don’t understand the circuit much. But when you say the circuit makes water resonance I’ll replicate your circuit immediately. Now I’m collecting stuff to build cell.
    Keep good work. I’m watching now!

    Best regards,

    Ngoc

  4. With my experimentation, using a 0.22uF capacitor on pins 6 & 7 of the PLL VCO gives a locking range of 0.5Hz – 100KHz, realistically more like 20Hz – 80KHz. Dropping that to 0.1uF raises the range to 100Hz – 120Khz and a little higher, I didn’t test higher than that because that’s the best I could get out of one side of a 556 chip. Meyer ran his cells at under 10KHz, so I don’t know anything about 30-100MHz, that just doesn’t make any sense at all. That’s FM transmitter speed. The PLL chip I’m using here can go upwards towards 13MHz if I remember correctly, but there would have to be some significant changes to the rest of the circuit to support this speed.

    Oh, and I don’t mean to be cranky, but I did not say this circuit makes water resonate, nor will I ever say that. I make no claims whatsoever. This is an electronic circuit for entertainment purposes only. It makes LEDs blink. When it is completed, if somebody wanted to hook it up to a Meyer water fuel cell, it might track the changing resonant frequency of the cell, but I don’t know anybody who has done this because it’s not completed yet. Making any claims about suitability of purpose on this circuit could open me to criticism, liability, and ridicule. Sorry, but I’m not here to feed the trolls. It blinks light emitting diodes, nothing more is claimed.

    Achieving a resonant frequency in the circuitry of a Stanley Meyer water fuel cell causes the most efficient catastrophic breakdown of the water dielectric, or at least that’s the subject of several patents that he owns and owned. I’ve never seen this, I don’t personally know anyone who has done this. From what I have read, water resonates in a microwave oven at something like 2.45GHz, if that’s what you want, try making a nice cup of tea :-)

    Hey, I’m not picking on you, you’re just the first :-) Thanks again for your comments.

  5. Bui Xuan Ngoc says:

    Can you measure voltage that output from VIC transformer? What kind of VIC transformer core do you use? I’m going take a core from flyback transformer. Is it OK?

  6. I’m currently using a Triad brand power transformer, 115/120VAC to 5/10VAC. It’s hooked in series for 10V:230V or 23:1 ratio. No, it’s not good, and I need to wrap a new VIC. I’ll get measurements and pictures soon.

  7. New post shows all my parts, I still need to get a few scope pics after doing a little rewiring.

    I know some experimenters are using flyback coils, so that should be fine. In particular, take a look at the forums on http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/, I know they discuss flyback coils and circuits in detail there.

    Take a look at the design by 2curious4WFC at http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5167#5167 , it’s quite impressive.

  8. WOW, you are truly amazing… this is electronics in einstein :) although I have no friggin clue how all this works together, it’s easy to read … and I’m glad you are releasing this to the public ….

  9. Thank you! Now if only it actually worked :-) Day job has been rough lately, I haven’t been able to spend time on it that I would like. The “rot” is here, all the leaves are falling, rain is forecast for the next week solid, snow will be here soon, and I have a few more weather-related tasks to perform before I can get back to this. I have to make jigs to wind coils, all different types and sizes. I’m convinced some function of this circuit will work, but I’m not getting any voltage out of the Triad, I need to find something that works better.

  10. Hi

    I’ll be in line for a set of your prototype circuit boards when you’re ready! :)
    I haven’t seen you post on the other wesite lately so I thought I’d better leave a comment here with my email address.

    DonL

  11. Sorry, I did get a email that there was a response from the forum, I’m just swamped. I’m hammering on a software release at my day job, and researching about it in the evenings. Once every few days I take a break to pee. I should have some time coming into the holidays to wind come coils and get a little more done on this, but I’ve had to do a few small miracles elsewhere lately.

    All right, I’ll admit to a playing a little Fallout 3. Just a smidgen.

  12. I know how those software deadlines can come and go….. I work for a software development company.
    My wife will say something about church tomorrow and I think to myself that I didn’t even know it was Saturday already!

    We all need some down time (brainless game play) now and then.

    DonL

  13. Don L (a different one) says:

    Hello, and great work here. I am wondering what has happend with the PLL scanner, have you gotten any good signs of Hydrogen yield? I have 2 Lawton circuits, and I have been all over the net trying to find a simpler way to create a scanning PLL circuit. I keep looking for a Lawton based scanner and Pll? do you have any info or ideas thanks the Other Don L

  14. No on the yield, the voltages aren’t going through the Triad transformer, I’m still not sure why. It works better if I use the ‘Direct with Chokes’ hookup (see http://pyroflatulence.tv/?p=162 ).

    A ‘Lawton’ type circuit uses two 555 timers to provide (for lack of terminology I’ll invent a couple of word usements here) a ‘hum’ high-frequency square wave, modulated by a ‘gate’ lower frequency square wave. The composite output wave biases a MOSFET and pulses a relatively high power voltage through stainless steel electrodes in water. The ‘Oscillation Overthruster’ circuit shown here replaces the ‘hum’ timer with the Voltage Controlled Oscillator (VCO) in a 74HC7046 Phase Locked Loop (PLL) chip. This oscillator can be controlled manually with a potentiometer at Test Point 10 (TP10), or can be hooked into supporting circuitry that A) provides a moving ‘scanner’ voltage that attempts to lock-on to a resonant frequency, and B) when the PLL locks, switches the scanner voltage to feedback from the VIC coil back into the PLL. The 7046 and one side of the 556 dual timer (‘dwell’) act like a ‘Lawton’ type circuit with PLL, so if that’s what you’re looking for, this is an example. However, I’m not Dave, so I get to call it something else.

    I go a bit further and provide some support circuits which feedback the VIC pulses to the PLL, provide an initial scanning voltage when the PLL isn’t locked, safety shut-off circuitry, and lots of blinky LEDs. Don’t get lost in the supporting circuits… the 7046 PLL and the ‘Dwell timer’ to the left in the schematic are the guts of the circuit. The ‘driver’ circuit is just a fancy interface to the MOSFET, it all performs the same functions.

    Now, if I just had another life, I could get back to work on it. I’m coming to decisions about some of the problems I was seeing, so new post soon I hope.

  15. […] with some electronics know how will have to judge. Here is the link to the site with more info. Stomping in Clown Shoes » WFC PLL – the Oscillation Overthruster Attached […]

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